ATTN: All 3.4L swapped Trooper guys

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ATTN: All 3.4L swapped Trooper guys

Postby IsuzuGeek » Wed Sep 30, 2009 2:54 pm

OK folks, I am going to buy my motor today. I'm gonna need a lot of guidance going forward.

First off, does anyone have a starter jig they can lend/sell me? Otherwise, I will order the kit from Rodney Dickman's site (man, that's a great name).

After I get the motor home, and get the starter holes drilled, what would be the remaining steps, in order, that I should follow before the swap actually gets performed.

I please replace as much as I can on the motor while it is on the stand. In a previous thread, it was mentioned I should do all the gaskets. What else do I need to order for the swap. My checklist is as follows:

1) Motor
2) Starter Jig
3) 4.3L TBI

I read through all the info in Ed's packet. Lots of stuff in there, and for me, a little tough to get my head around. Do I need a new oil pan and a longer take up tube? Do I need a new clutch or just a new flywheel or not? Do I need to find a different intake manifold? Do I need a different fuel pump? A lot of the info in there is confusing because it is like, "if you are going to do this, then you need to do this, but if you have this, then do this" etc. So I am a little fuzzy on what I need to do to make this 100%.

Thanks for getting me started. And sorry for all the misc threads about this. I am just trying to get my head around it. I'm off to a good start with the right motor.

Bart
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Postby justwork » Wed Sep 30, 2009 3:23 pm

You'll need a new oil pan and oil pick up, longer to fit the pan. I believe it's the same pan as the 2.8L in your Trooper. I think in that packet of Ed's there is a part #. You've got the engine out so I would suggest going with a new clutch and at least machine the fly wheel - clutch kits are expensive but wouldn't you be pissed if it went a couple months after you did all that work installing the engine? The intake manifold will need to be bored to match the 4.3L throttle body - get one off a 2.8L as the MPFI on the 3.4 aint gonna work with a throttle body. Your trooper is a 2.8L, so you wont need a new fuel pump.
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Postby IsuzuGeek » Wed Sep 30, 2009 4:21 pm

justwork wrote:You'll need a new oil pan and oil pick up, longer to fit the pan. I believe it's the same pan as the 2.8L in your Trooper. I think in that packet of Ed's there is a part #. You've got the engine out so I would suggest going with a new clutch and at least machine the fly wheel - clutch kits are expensive but wouldn't you be pissed if it went a couple months after you did all that work installing the engine? The intake manifold will need to be bored to match the 4.3L throttle body - get one off a 2.8L as the MPFI on the 3.4 aint gonna work with a throttle body. Your trooper is a 2.8L, so you wont need a new fuel pump.


Ok, yeah, I remember reading about the oil pan and pickup tube. I could just use my 2.8s oil pan with a new gasket, correct?

Now, on to the throttle body headache. I just got back from the scrap yard. I bought the motor. There I was talking to the guy about my swap, and told him I am going to need a 4.3L throttle body. Now, what confuses the hell outta me, is why can't I just use the throttle body that is on this 3.4 already? Someone please clear this up because it really doesn't make sense to me. The motor is from a 95 Firebird and has a 3.4 Throttle Body coming with it, so why the need to change it out for a 4.3 TB? Is it an ECU issue?

Thanks,

Bart
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Postby btw1549 » Wed Sep 30, 2009 4:44 pm

My 3.4 is out of a 93 firebird and it had multiport injection. Don't know why it would have a TBI on it. That's a new one to me all together to be honest. never heard of a 3.4l with a TBI. If you were just confused and it is MPFI then the problem there is the harness. I really want to know about that 3.4l TBI now! Hope someone has an answer better then mine.
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Postby justwork » Wed Sep 30, 2009 5:42 pm

No, the 3.4L isn't a TBI engine, it's multi port. It should look something like this:
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Search through some of Red0ktober's posts. He did a 3.4L swap and kept the MPFI - from what I gather it was a bit of a nightmare and he has since switched it the a TB setup.

The problem with the multiport is the ECU. You would need a 3.4L ECU to make this work, which means a lot of wiring and trouble shooting when you're done. I think he put his ECU in the glovebox, along with a rats nest of wires.

Keep it simple.
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Postby isuzufool » Wed Sep 30, 2009 5:47 pm

justwork wrote:You've got the engine out so I would suggest going with a new clutch and at least machine the fly wheel - clutch kits are expensive but wouldn't you be pissed if it went a couple months after you did all that work installing the engine?


Can't you also get a larger size clutch disc to fit in there as well? Better grip for your buck!
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Postby justwork » Wed Sep 30, 2009 5:52 pm

isuzufool wrote:
justwork wrote:You've got the engine out so I would suggest going with a new clutch and at least machine the fly wheel - clutch kits are expensive but wouldn't you be pissed if it went a couple months after you did all that work installing the engine?


Can't you also get a larger size clutch disc to fit in there as well? Better grip for your buck!


Yeah, the 4x4 rodeo one.
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Postby IsuzuGeek » Wed Sep 30, 2009 6:21 pm

OK, when I get this motor home (next week I am picking it up) I will get some photos and post.

Thanks - Bart
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Postby IsuzuGeek » Wed Sep 30, 2009 6:46 pm

I just talked to someone about this, and basically they said both the 2.8 and 3.4 have a throttle body, it's just different technology so to speak.

Both motors have a throttle body but the 3.4 uses MPFI whereas the 2.8 does not use MPFI. Would that be a correct statement?

I'm sorry, I'm learning all about this on the fly. :?

Bart
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Postby IsuzuGeek » Wed Sep 30, 2009 7:08 pm

OK, I was just talking to my buddy about this again, he's a mechanic back east. He said why not just make it a carburetored set up? Is there an emissions issue then? He said that would be the simplest method.

So much damn info, my head is spinning!

Thanks - Bart
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Postby DAMUDKING » Wed Sep 30, 2009 7:25 pm

nfpgasmask wrote:I just talked to someone about this, and basically they said both the 2.8 and 3.4 have a throttle body, it's just different technology so to speak.

Both motors have a throttle body but the 3.4 uses MPFI whereas the 2.8 does not use MPFI. Would that be a correct statement?

I'm sorry, I'm learning all about this on the fly. :?

Bart

Yes both motors have a "throttle body" but they are 2 completely different beast's the the 3.4 throttle body regulates air flow only and use's injectors for the fuel supply and the 2.8/4.3 tb regulates fuel and air with fuel injectors mounted into the TBI unit itself instead of into the intake manifold.

OK, I was just talking to my buddy about this again, he's a mechanic back east. He said why not just make it a carburetored set up? Is there an emissions issue then? He said that would be the simplest method.

So much damn info, my head is spinning!

Thanks - Bart


honestly the TBI unit is going to be simpler then tuning a carb, you'll have more power capability...better off road performance, cheaper!!

you can just use the 2.8 throttle body with the stock injectors you will just run lean on the top end if you are not comfortable setting up the 4.3 TB/ boring intake this may be the best option to get it up and going
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Postby justwork » Wed Sep 30, 2009 7:26 pm

I don't get it Bart, it's not tough. I think you've built this up to be something much more difficult than it is. You get a 4.3 TBI, wire it in and bolt it on, you're done. Why make it carborated? Because a TBI setup is better, and it's SIMPLE.

Adding the 4.3 TBI will be the easiest part of this engine swap.
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Postby IsuzuGeek » Wed Sep 30, 2009 7:34 pm

justwork wrote:I don't get it Bart, it's not tough. I think you've built this up to be something much more difficult than it is. You get a 4.3 TBI, wire it in and bolt it on, you're done. Why make it carborated? Because a TBI setup is better, and it's SIMPLE.

Adding the 4.3 TBI will be the easiest part of this engine swap.

What makes it difficult is the large amount of info I am getting from about a million different sources.

If it was as simple as bolting it on, great, but from everything I have read, there is boring out of the intake to do, machining, etc. I'm just trying to get a good, solid game plan together. There just seems to be so many effing variables and different ways of accomplishing the same thing. That's all. I'm sure once I dive into the project, this will all become more clear to me.

My main thing is, I don't want to spend money on things I don't need, I don't want to eff up anything that I do need, and I don't want my vehicle down for more than a week while I try to sort through all the technicalities.

I know there will be little things to tweak here and there, and like I said before, I have never swapped an engine before, so yeah, it is a big deal to me. Maybe when I am done, I will say, "that wasn't so bad". But for right now, it seems like an assload of information to try to understand when you know squat about motors. :)

Thanks.

Bart
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Postby Ed Mc. » Wed Sep 30, 2009 9:14 pm

OK, here goes:

1. You do not need a new oil pan. The one from your motor will bolt up to the 3.4.

2. Whether or not you'll need a new oil pump and pickup tube depends on whether your existing oil pump pickup tube is 5/8" in diameter or 3/4" in diameter. The larger tube goes with a taller pump (i.e. taller gears means pumps better). This is an upgrade GM did to get better oiling and the 3.4 continued on using this upgraded pump.

If your motor has a 5/8" diameter pickup tube you'll need to purchase both a new pump and pickup tube. The part #'s for those are in the info packet.

3. You can use your existing flywheel if it's in decent condition (not cracked). You will definitely need to have the flywheel surfaced or the new clutch won't bed-in properly and will have a short life. Some auto parts stores have an exchange deal where your old flywheel is turned in as a core and you get a nice freshly-surfaced flywheel then and there. Makes for a faster turnaround.

3a. Up to you whether to upgrade the clutch to 3.1 specs but the 2.8 clutch is pretty marginal in a 3.4, especially with performance mods.

4. It's possible to use the stock 2.8/3.1 TBI atop a 3.4, but if you don't adjust pressure it'll surge badly when cold, and run very lean when warmed up. The stock GM TBI's fuel pressure regulator is adjustable within a short band. If you need instructions for this let me know. I think it's in the info packet somewhere, though.

4a. If you want more performance, or even consider it a possibility that somewhere down the line you might, now is the time to bore out the intake. If you don't, and later on you decide you want to, you're gonna spend a lot of labor pulling the intake, changing gaskets, pushrod removal tool (or re-doing all the valve lashes which Ain't no fun!).

If you do get the old intake bored out now to match a 4.3 TBI base gasket, future upgrades become very simple: disconnect & unbolt TBI unit and bolt on the larger one.

5. Don't forget that you're getting a used motor, you're gonna want to check the cam/lifters for any problems. You're gonna need to pull the Camaro timing cover and swap the cover over from your motor. While you're in there, renew the timing chain damper. It's under $10 and cheap insurance against a broken chain down the line. Check the timing chain for slop, likely it'll have some, and new gear/chain kits aren't that expensive.

6. Misc: Renew the rear seal. When you swap over the oil filter adapter from the old motor, there's a gasket between the adapter and block. And a special, square-shouldered O-ring on the center bolt that holds the adapter to the block. You may find that a casting on the 3.4 interferes with proper mounting of the adapter. Just 'buzz' it off with a cutoff wheel. Lots of grit/dust/debris when you do this, be sure to protect the Innards of your engine. Renew the distributor O-ring, if you don't this $1 part will cost you several Hundred $$ in aggravation!

And in case you haven't seen this post, it should help:

https://forum.planetisuzoo.com/viewtopic ... ht=#110825

Anything else, let us know. G'luck with the swap..........ed
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Postby maxwell417 » Wed Sep 30, 2009 9:34 pm

^ What Ed said ... Now stop reading and start working :P
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Postby IsuzuGeek » Wed Sep 30, 2009 10:09 pm

Thank you Ed for making that much clearer. And thanks to everyone else for putting up with me. 8)

I understand now about the boring. I am picking up the motor in one week, and then the fun begins.

Thanks - Bart
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Postby IsuzuGeek » Fri Oct 02, 2009 12:30 pm

OK, I think things are starting to make a little more sense to me. Please excuse my ignorance, as I am learning all of this as I go, with absolutely nothing to physically look at in front of me. Please correct any of my below statements if they are out of line:

1) The 2.8L intake manifold needs to be used because the 3.4 intake manifold has a different configuration and will not work with the 2.8 throttle body or a 4.3 throttle body, correct?

2) When I pull the 2.8L intake off my current motor, I will need a new 4.3L gasket, and all I need to do is either take it to a machine shop and have it port matched to the 4.3 bores or do it myself with a grinder, correct?

Thanks - Bart
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Postby LTC Don » Fri Oct 02, 2009 1:05 pm

You are correct in your answer to your questions.

Ed Mc is the man, listen to him and you will not go wrong. We are extremely lucky to have him as a member on this board. You are an ISUZU driver upgrading a GM manufactured engine. Pay no attention to anyone else who is not already a member of this board or the 4x4wire.com board, ISUZU section.

The GM motor has been modified ever so slightly to work in the ISUZU application so those who have done this swap before you have learned and overcome all the little quirks during the changeover.

Just relax, read, and take your time.

Oh, and get some nice fitting mechanics gloves, they will save you mucho grief in skinned knuckles. :shock:

Cheers,
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Postby IsuzuGeek » Fri Oct 02, 2009 1:30 pm

LTC Don wrote:Oh, and get some nice fitting mechanics gloves, they will save you mucho grief in skinned knuckles. :shock:


Yeah, I have a pair of "Master Mechanic" gloves and I love them. :)

Bart
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Postby Slinky » Fri Oct 02, 2009 2:01 pm

Glad to hear this is coming together for you Bart. I can't wait to see thing in action.
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Postby geoffinbc » Fri Oct 02, 2009 2:24 pm

nfpgasmask wrote:OK, I think things are starting to make a little more sense to me. Please excuse my ignorance, as I am learning all of this as I go, with absolutely nothing to physically look at in front of me. Please correct any of my below statements if they are out of line:

1) The 2.8L intake manifold needs to be used because the 3.4 intake manifold has a different configuration and will not work with the 2.8 throttle body or a 4.3 throttle body, correct?

2) When I pull the 2.8L intake off my current motor, I will need a new 4.3L gasket, and all I need to do is either take it to a machine shop and have it port matched to the 4.3 bores or do it myself with a grinder, correct?

Thanks - Bart


I'll try.

The 2.8L and 3.1L that come in the Chevy S-10's, Isuzus and Chevy Lumina vans all use the same TBI unit and same injectors. Each throttle bore measures 1 3/8" and there are 2 of them.

Now the intake manifold has matching holes in the top of the manifold that are the same size as the throttle bores. It is not a large open plenum like a lot of manifolds you might see in the aftermarket.

The 4.3L, 5.0L and 5.7L throttle bodies on other GM TBI equipped motors all have a bore of 1 11/16", quite a bit bigger. Now EVERYTHING else is the same between a 2.8L and the other throttle bodies EXCEPT the injectors flow rate and the throttle bores.

So now you have upgraded to a 20% larger motor you should make provisions to allow more air into the motor to get the full potential. So on goes the 4.3L throttle body with larger throttle bores. But now you stuck it on an intake with smaller openings. So if you try and open the throttle now you can just barely crack it because the large throttle plates now bang into the smaller bores in the manifold. So you need to have your stock intake manifold machined to 1 11/16"

If this part seems like too much for you or you cannot find a machine shop I can provide you with and intake and throttle body all cleaned, modified and assembled. All you have to do is bolt it on and go. I charge $300 with shipping included. I have already done a few for members on other boards.

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Postby PolarStar » Fri Oct 02, 2009 3:02 pm

nfpgasmask wrote:I understand now about the boring. I am picking up the motor in one week, and then the fun begins.

Thanks - Bart


Just keep updating. This is shaping up to be an excellent thread.
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Postby IsuzuGeek » Fri Oct 02, 2009 4:43 pm

betterthanyou, I PMed you about your fine services.

:) Bart
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Postby IsuzuGeek » Fri Oct 02, 2009 5:53 pm

This is the clutch I need to upgrade to the 3.1 Rodeo 4x4 clutch for the swap, correct?

http://www.capclutch.com/rod31l4wd919.html

Thanks,

Bart
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Postby Ruination » Fri Oct 02, 2009 8:25 pm

Wow that's the cheapest I've seen a clutch for these trucks for! Normally I see them in the 200-300 range. Let me know how that sucker looks if you do get it.
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