'89 Trooper Gushed AntiFreeze + Timing Cover Gasket Question

[Tantz]

1989 Trooper: owner since 2016, 290k miles

Hello everyone.. need to run the diagnosis from a new mechanic I found by the forum, would like to get feedback:

Just moved from the beach in Southern CA to the snowy wintery mountains, two weeks ago, we've had a heavy snow storm already, which I am sure my Trooper had never been in temperatures below 50 before, here we're below 30 at times.

Snow has melted so I drove down the mountain to the nearby town on an errand, as I parked, the antifreeze gushed out of the middle of the engine.

I drove 1.6 miles to a seasoned mechanic, by the time I got there the Temp gauge was HOT with a bit of smoke coming out of the engine.

The mechanic let it cool, then did a water pressure test, saying:

he needs to replace the TIMING COVER GASKET since this is where the water was leaking. $421 for that + oil change gallon of coolant.
Does this sound right? Hourly rate for a mechanic in CA is $90-110/hour.
He adds, possibly also:
timing cover
timing cover bolts
timing gear set
timing chain
water pump

ALSO wonder if ... the engine was smoking... will there be a more serious issues possibly, with the head gasket, and how do we test that before hand?

Thanks for any advice or insight?!

TANTZ

[itsmehb]

Really, a mechanic said the leak is out of the timing cover gasket? Never happen. The timing cover only covers the timing belt and tensioner. The engine can be run and car drivin without the timing cover in place with no problem. The water could have come from a water pump leaking which is partially under the timing cover. You can reuse the timing cover and bolts. No need for new ones. A mechanic should be able to replace the water pump in an hour and the pump can be bought for less than 50 dollars if that's what's leaking.

[Ed Mc.]

Is this a 2.6 4-cylinder, or a GM 2.8 V6?

Because the 2.8 V6 has a water pump mounted on the timing cover. Plus there are water passages in the timing cover that are sealed by a gasket, between the timing cover and the block.

It's possible the timing-cover-to-block gasket is leaking, and that would be a problem requiring removal of the timing cover to fix.

I'd say that their parts list is pretty accurate, except that you shouldn't have to replace the timing cover unless it's cracked (and that's the reason for the leakage).

More likely the gasket has failed and that's the source of your leak.

Is there any coolant in the oil? If that gasket fails to the inside, coolant will run right down to the oil pan. Or maybe it's just an external leakage.

You should probably have the mechanic replace the thermostat as well, since it overheated. The V6 takes a 195F 'stat. He should also check the radiator and make sure the fan clutch is operating properly. Basically you need to make sure there's nothing else but the leak, causing an overheat condition.

If your V6 has a lot of miles, the timing chain is gonna be worn. You don't just replace the chain, you have to do the cam and crank gear as well. Thus the recommendation for "timing set".

He should also replace the "timing damper" that resides in the middle of where the chain runs. It has rubber shoes that the chain rides on, these shoes harden/crack with heat, age, and exposure to oil. This is a cheap part and good insurance. A worn damper will eventually cause the timing chain to break.

You'll need a timing cover seal, the block gasket, water pump gasket. IDK why he wants to replace the bolts, they have Torx heads and unless they break coming out, they are re-usable.

Far as other engine damage goes, many years ago I "smoked" the 2.8 in my old '90 Trooper "S", due to a busted heater hose. BTW replace all those hoses if they're old, they WILL break eventually! The 2 twisted hoses at the firewall (driver's side) for the heater core, like to blow out. I've had 2 Troopers where these hoses blew.

Anyway, the good ol' V6 got pretty toasty (temp gauge actually went above 1/2, believe that!) but I managed to coast downhill to a hardware store and was able to patch it up enough to get home. You'd think the head gaskets would have blown, but it never hurt it.

Your mechanic will likely pressure-check the coolant system after repairs, if there are any issues they should show up then.

So, to sum up, other than the timing cover, I'd say that's a decent repair list (plus my suggestions).

You can look up parts here at Rockauto to get an idea of what they should cost, to make sure he's not overcharging you on those:

https://www.rockauto.com/en/catalog/isu ... v6,1309306

Hope that helps, of course if you don't have a 2.8 V6, Never Mind!

In that case, IDK what's going on and agree with itsmehb, CRAZY!!

Hope that helps, Good Luck!................ed

.

[DSUZU]

A post from 2016 indicates that he has (had?) 2 V6 Troopers. Dennis

[Tantz]

@DSUZU thanks, yes that's correct, it's a she : )
________________________

@Ed excellent of you to send so much detail, gosh I wish you could chat with the mechanic I'm using, you know more about this specific truck than he I am sure..
- yes we think it's the gasket
- replace the thermostat as well / got it
- check the radiator for fan clutch operating
- check timing chain, yes he has a plan to check this once in the engine, the whole set
- timing damper
- timing cover seal, block gasket, water pump gasket
- yes he said there's always a chance
AND
- to overall make sure there's nothing else but this gasket leak causing the over heating
( I felt the antifreeze leaked out due to a gasket crack, then once it was out then the engine overheated cause I drove a mile or so...)

?? not sure if there is coolant in the oil.. there has also been a mid engine area oil leak since I bought it, so I tend to just top it off once a month. are any of the areas we are discussing related to a common leak?

thank you Ed!
________________________
@itsmehb they believe it is the Timing Cover Gasket that is the cause of the leak, good to know about the water pump replacement, thank you!

[Ed Mc.]

Pull the oil dipstick and if there has been coolant getting in the oil, it'll look like a chocolate milkshake.

If the oil on the dipstick looks normal (golden/brown & transparent, or even black), then you probably don't have any coolant contamination.

If you do find milky oil, get the sump drained IMMEDIATELY. Coolant very actively corrodes rod and crankshaft bearings, and you don't need that! Then you'll be looking at an engine replacement, can I recommend a good nice Camaro 3.4 V6??

Keep in mind that itsmehb was thinking you had a 2.6 4-cyl, which is a completely different Beast altogether.

BTW the timing cover is not an extremely complicated casting, and if it is cracked or otherwise compromised and leaking, it shouldn't be too difficult to spot. Note that it would be extremely rare to see a timing cover crack, unless the engine were to freeze due to straight water being used instead of a water/antifreeze mix.

If you do find you need a timing cover, a good used one from an '88-93 S10 2.8, 3.1 ZuZu pickup, or 3.1 Rodeo would work well. Or of course an '89-'91 Trooper 2.8!

Let us know how it turns out............ed

[itsmehb]

My bad. Yes, I assumed it was the 2.6. Ed Mc is one of our best mechs on the 2.8, and his posts are always full of links, part numbers, and how to's.

[Ed Mc.]

My bad. Yes, I assumed it was the 2.6. Ed Mc is one of our best mechs on the 2.8, and his posts are always full of links, part numbers, and how to's.

No worries!

Thanks for the kind words. What a great place the Planet is!!

[DSUZU]

it's a she : )

My bad. That's the beauty of this place though. We don't know who, gender, race etc. We're all just Isuzu fans. Dennis

[Tantz]

Thanks @ED

Question: if it is only the timing cover gasket that's ultimately being replaced, does $425 seem right? Is getting to the gasket to replace it time consuming, say 1.5 hours each way, in to it, then to put it back together?

I'm trying to assess how he's quoting $425 for gasket replacement only.
Granted, that will also include/involve oil change, gallon of coolant, water pump gasket, new seals...

Thanks! TANTZ

[Ed Mc.]

Thanks @ED

Question: if it is only the timing cover gasket that's ultimately being replaced, does $425 seem right? Is getting to the gasket to replace it time consuming, say 1.5 hours each way, in to it, then to put it back together?

I'm trying to assess how he's quoting $425 for gasket replacement only.
Granted, that will also include/involve oil change, gallon of coolant, water pump gasket, new seals...

Thanks! TANTZ

Doesn't seem outrageously high. Shop labor up here in the PNW is running $90-$120/hr or more. That's why so many of us work on our own rigs. Understand that not everyone has the tools or skills to do so. In that case you've got to find a good reputable shop that knows what they're doing.

I'm sure it'd take me a good weekend to do that job, but I'm not as fast as I used to be! And most mechanics should have plenty of experience working on older pushrod GM engines. He'll have to unto the serpentine belt, pull the fan and fan shroud, drain the antifreeze, disconnect radiator hoses and heater hoses, pull the radiator, remove the water pump, pull the harmonic balancer (takes a special tool for that), remove all the timing cover bolts, then pull the timing cover. Clean the timing cover, scrape old gasket material off all block and cover surfaces, tap out the old crank seal in the timing cover, install a new seal.

Oh, yeah, did I forget he'll need to make sure the crankshaft is at Top Dead Center with #1 cylinder on the compression stroke. So he'll have to use a remote starter switch or have an assistant bump the engine over until the crankshaft is lined-up. Or put a wrench on the crankshaft bolt. This is an important step that has to do with alignment of the new timing set.

With the timing cover removed, he'll have to undo the bolt holding the cam gear on the camshaft, and pull the cam gear and timing chain. If he's lucky the crankshaft gear might slip off, but it'll probably have a tight, press fit so he'll have to use a puller to remove the gear. The the one easy part, the 2 bolts that hold down the timing damper! With the cam and crank marks properly aligned, the timing set is installed.

Then comes the rest of the reassembly. He'll need to carefully apply Permatex Ultra-Grey RTV or equivalent on the bottom of the timing cover where it contacts the oil pan gasket. Since he's not pulling the engine or dropping the front differential, the oil pan isn't going to be completely removed. So the area in the front where the timing cover sits on the old gasket must be thoroughly degreased so the RTV sealer will stick and cure properly. Otherwise you'll get a nasty leak at the cover/pan gasket interface.

After the timing cover, the rest of it is a piece of cake, just reinstall in order of disassembly! Sounds easy, right? Well, it ain't rocket science, but it all has to go together in the correct sequence, with the correct sealers and everything adjusted when you're done.

That's a lot of wrenching involved to replace a "two-bit" gasket! Fortunately the only special tools needed are the harmonic balancer puller/installer and a set of Torx bits for the timing cover/water pump bolts. You can rent special tools, BTW, from your local Autozone. You make a full-price deposit for the special tool, and you get your $$$ refunded in full when you return the tool.

He'll also probably want to check the engine timing, since the sloppy cam chain will affect that. Or you can learn how to do that, from this forum!

I'd highly recommend learning to do at least basic maint like oil changes, spark plugs, filters, hoses, belt, etc. You'll save so many $$ if you can do it yourself, and you have all the resources here at the Planet to guide you to a successful repair. Our 30-year+ old rigs do need a bit of maint now and then! It's still better than car payments, and if you can do some things yourself, it's like you're paying yourself $100/hr to do the work.

A factory service manual is a valuable resource. Some copies are sold on the 'net. Aftermarket manuals like Chiltons are just about worthless. Sometimes the Haynes manuals have decent info in them. Someone here might have a scanned version of the factory manual. I can give you a link to the '88 manual which is for a 2.6 4-cyl, but outside the engine and emission controls, everything else is virtually the same as your V6 rig.

I also found this Factory V6 "Supplement" manual for an '89 on eBay, it ain't cheap, but between the info the in '88 online manual, and this engine supplement, you'd have all the info you'd likely ever need to do any repair on the rig. These don't come up very often, either!

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1989-Isuzu-Tro ... 4855025482

Cheers........ed

[DSUZU]

1
He adds, possibly also:
timing cover
timing cover bolts
timing gear set
timing chain
water pump
TANTZ

"Possibly also"
At 30 years old and 290K miles, It is possible the timing cover could be damaged in removal (aluminum to steel = corrosion, this is also why he quoted timing cover bolts)
Timing gear set - any mechanic worth his (or her, I've known some darn good female mechanics) would recommend replacing the timing components while doing the cover gasket.
It would be totally foolish to not do the water pump as well as it has to be removed.
As Ed mentioned, this is a LOT of work. Add the age and miles. That's a pretty fair price. There will probably be a couple hundred extra for the timing set and water pump, but it will be money well spent. Dennis

[Ed Mc.]

Yeah, what Dennis said!

[Tantz]

Hi @Dennis and @Ed,

Just head from the mechanic, they have the engine opened up, he said:
yes: timing gasket, needs new
yes: timing cover, needs new

Said that 'they see the intake manifold is starting to leak, shows signs of leakage' yet that would be a lot bigger job.

I asked him to send me pics:

[Ed Mc.]

It's not uncommon on the GM 60-deg V6 for the intake manifold bolts to slack off, then you get leakage at the gasket. Fortunately yours appears to just be leaking externally. Many times coolant will leak into the engine oil and then the bearings go bad. I bought an '89 Trooper 2.8 years ago really cheap, because it had an intake coolant leak which was fixed, but 20-30K later the bearings went out from previous damage. But it did make it to 242,000 miles before it died. I rebuilt that 2.8 & turned it into a 3.1 "Stroker", and my Nephew is still driving that rig.

Yeah, more labor, TBI unit base gasket, a couple of intake manifold gaskets, and some Ultra-Grey RTV or other GM-equivalent sealer. The gaskets go behind the pushrods, and it's not recommended to cut the gaskets when you install new ones. There's a pushrod removal tool that will take out the pushrods without disturbing the valve lash adjustment (which would be disturbed if one were to pull each rocker arm adjusting locknut to get the pushrod out of the way).

Here's a link on eBay to the Lisle 48300 pushrod removal tool, it's around $20:

https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R ... 00&_sop=15

$18.08 on Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/Lisle-48300-Push ... B00DBMLY8G

So if the mechanic tells you it's a lot of labor to undo the rocker arms to get at the intake gaskets, ask why they're not just using this $20 tool instead. They'll be shocked and/or impressed! The valve lash adjustment is fairly labor-intensive, so a $20 tool might save you $100 in labor charges.

The intake re-gasket is another one that's not a horribly complicated job, just a lot of wrenching. Heck, they already have the front of the engine opened up!! Pull the TBI unit, disconnect hoses/electrical, it's already drained of coolant, the distributor maybe doesn't have to come out if they can get at everything.

Too bad about the timing cover, hopefully they can find a good used one. New ones are not cheap, if you can even find one in stock anywhere.

Do a search on http://www.car-part.com and you may find a wrecking yard in your area with a good deal on a used cover. You can search by your Zip code and then filter the results for distance, near-to-far.

Be sure to tell the shop you want to see all the old parts they replace, so they can't pull a switch-er-oo and sell you one of your cleaned-up parts, for new. Not saying they will, but this is a known practice of disreputable shops.

Just a few more Cubic Dollars is all!

HTH........ed

.

[Tantz]

@Ed from what you see in the pics, what would they be doing to the Intake manifold?
Can not thank you enough or tell you enough how helpful it is to have your advice as well as the other guys here! Thank you

[Ed Mc.]

@Ed from what you see in the pics, what would they be doing to the Intake manifold?
Can not thank you enough or tell you enough how helpful it is to have your advice as well as the other guys here! Thank you

Well, it looks like it's seeping around the edges, I'd expect they would have identified the seepage as coolant from when they did their pressure test? The miles are tough on engines, especially after a big overheat. Things stretch, gaskets get "cooked" and go all crumbly. Certainly doesn't promote a good seal.

Simple job, pull the intake manifold, clean 'er up, replace the gaskets. Everything else you have to do besides that, makes it more complicated!

Hope that answers your question.....ed

p.s. You're Very Welcome, thanks!

[Tantz]

Ok, just spoke to the mechanic

SO THE FINAL WORK ORDER IS:

timing gasket
timing cover (found one $150)
hoses
Dampener
timing chain
tensioner
------------------- $1000 total

NOT INCLUDING INTAKE MANIFOLD WORK
this, we decided to tighten bolts that are accessible, because adding that work in would increase the bill by $600 and that is tough for me at the moment

They are starting the work today.

[DSUZU]

Sorry to hear about your extra problems, hope they solve things w/o breaking the bank. I remember having intake manifold leak problems back when those 2.8s were fairly new (Chevy S10s). FWIW, I currently have a 2002 Ford Ranger in my shop and it has the same kind of timing cover leak . This rusty old piece of **** isn't worth sending out for repair, and I sure don't have the time to mess with it. I'm going to try some sealer and if that doesn't seal it up, the truck goes by-by. I have used the sealer successfully on head gaskets, but haven't tried it on leaky gaskets yet. I would NOT advise it for a vehicle you really care about. Dennis

[Ed Mc.]

Dennis, try a bottle of Subaru Coolant System Conditioner. It's inexpensive and is good for pesky "weeps". It won't plug up your heater core, either.

It's usually very cheap at the Subaru dlr or get it at Amazon, Walmart, eBay:

https://www.amazon.com/SUBARU-SOA635071 ... B00IGZP2UE

https://www.walmart.com/ip/Genuine-Suba ... /567922643

https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R ... 9&_sacat=0

Be sure to Shake Shake Shake it up good, before pouring it in the radiator.

[DSUZU]

Thanks Ed. You know, as one who has 4, and have had 7, the Subaru stuff should have come to mind. For a while, the stuff was hard to find, but I have seen it on Amazon. I am restricted on where I get stuff because it's work, but I can have our Admin buy off Amazon. I'll just have to be clear that it's not for MY Subaru.

NOTE: This might be a good thing for Tantz to try for her intake leaks. Dennis

[Ed Mc.]

NOTE: This might be a good thing for Tantz to try for her intake leaks. Dennis

YUP!

[Tantz]

HI @ED and @Dennis and all,

Picked my Trooper up Thursday last week. Drives well, so I feel the mechanics did a good job, yet every so often now there is a loud grunt/yelp from the engine. I did not have this happening before.... Lordy. Any of you ever experience this? Have a great day guys! : ) Tantz

[DSUZU]

now there is a loud grunt/yelp from the engine. Tantz

Hard to tell what it might be. Try to be as descriptive as possible: When taking off? When shifting gears? (manual or automatic - I don't remember) When steering?
Did they take care of your intake leak too?
FWIW: I did the additive to the Ranger today. While I wasn't able to get the Subaru stuff, I bought the Blue Devil "cooling system sealer" pour and go stuff (29.00 vs about 8.00 for Subaru stuff) You pour it in, let it sit and idle for 45 minutes (just like the head gasket sealer), let it cool off and then you can drive it. Seems to be working so far.
The Ranger has a consistent grunt when turning the steering wheel. Tomorrow, I'll get na assistant and see if maybe the belt is slipping. Dennis

[Tantz]

Here is a video, caught it on tape, it's happening while accelerating, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mVnG6F4rHJQ