2000 Trooper Engine seized. New Technical bulletin / advice

[daveTrooper]

Hi,

I'm desperately trying to find source material for my BBB arbitration hearing against Isuzu. Specifically, IB00-01-5002 or any other bulletins that address extremely high oil usage and seizing engines. Can anyone provide me with copies or tell me where to buy them. I'm not 100% sure about the number.

Please reply to csharpuser@hotmail.com

Briefly, my story is this. The engine completely seized up on the freeway. No "check engine" or oil light ever came on. Isuzu is refusing to make the warranty repair (I have the 120K/10 yr and it has 87K) as they say the cause was very low oil (1 1/2 qts) in engine. I didn't witness them drain the pan but I can say that I have receipts showing it was changed 4100 miles ago AND I check it every 2 weeks. I have found a ton of posts stating that troopers can burn through oil extremely quickly but I can imagine already that Isuzu is going to say, "ah, that's just heresay from disgruntled customers". Something official would really bolster my case. For what it's worth, the whole problem is reported on wikipedia.

Basically I want Isuzu to buy back the vehicle or repair it and compensate me for the time they have delayed the repair (1 1/2 months and counting). We'll see what happens and I'd be happy to keep people posted. I've been really disappointed with their service and attitude and would be happy to help anyone else out.

I would be most grateful for any links or copies of technical bulletins and/or advice for my hearing.

Sincerely,

Dave

By the way, I found out about these forums from Ryan's FAQ at
http://isuzufaq.ibctech.ca/ which has a ton of useful info on Troopers.
If I'd read his FAQ previously, I might have been able to prevent this (search for seafoam on his FAQ).

[bendorfold]

It's IB00-01-S002 not 5

Link that mentions a superseded SB IB04-01-S002 4th post down
http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/direct ... f0e0cff/73
atfdmike's link doesn't seem to work



Another: Piston rings for "affected vehicles"

[Amigo-2k]

Good post with others with the same issue:


http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbullet ... p?t=130758


http://forum.planetisuzoo.com/viewtopic.php?t=1914

[daveTrooper]

Thanks! I'll keep you posted on how it goes at the BBB arbitration hearing. Frankly, given the amount of records I have (including oil changes at regular intervals) and checking the oil, I don't think Isuzu has a case. But then I'm biased .


I suspect it will come down to who the judge believes. Isuzu will probably state that I must not have checked the oil.

Dave

[johanson]

I bought my 98 Trooper about 2 years ago. Previously I had a 92 and a 94 LS (mrsp $36,000!) with the 3.2, so never had a concern about the motor on the 98 - until I started visiting this forum. Now I check the oil level everytime I drive. Anywhere.

[slurpeemcnacho]

Different problem, same response from dealer and Isuzu.

I have a horrible knocking sound from my 2004 3.5L DI motor. Isuzu and the dealer say it's "normal". I have no recourse.

My question to them is: "How do I sell this vehicle to anyone when it sounds like this?"

They don't care!!!!!

[tomster]

Good luck with your case.

I personally don't think you have much chance of collecting. Isuzu will not likely say that oil consumption is "heresay". Instead they will agree with you that it is real. They will also add that since you know about it that is all the more reason for you to check your oil level as frequently as every gas fillup. In fact Isuzu, like almost all manufacturers nowadays, will say that oil consumption of 1qt/1kmis is normal. That jibes almost perfectly with your oil change timing and how much oil was left in the engine. Now how can you prove that you checked it two weeks, or less, before the engine went?

Yes, oil consumption can dramatically increase such that if you believe other posters you can lose an engine in under 1000mis since checking the level.
But again, how do you prove that in court AND that you don't have to check the level frequently enough to catch the problem?

I can recollect only 1 person that said they saw a low oil pressure light come on. Even then that happened just as the engine let go. Certainly no one ever reported a CEL as there is not one for low oil.

As for the TSB, again things change all the time. I don't think this will help you in court. Now if there were a recall notice where Isuzu promised to fix a known problem in order to prevent engine destruction, that would be great evidence.

Sorry for your loss. Still though the vast majority of Isuzus have very manageable levels of oil consumption and long lasting engines. Again I am not saying you don't have a reason to be very upset for how your situation turned out. However, knowing you have a problem and proving it is Isuzu's fault are I suspect two very different things.

Bottom line, as you now know, and for others who don't want to end up in a similar situation, if you burn oil you have to check your level at every gas fillup. You can also do many things to try and stop the burning (e.g. use Rotella, don't stretch oil change intervals, try a Seafoam type cleaner, keep the EGR and return tubing clean, clean the PCV, etc. (search for the details).

[daveTrooper]

Thanks for all the help from everyone. I had my day at the BBB and won.
The decision was that Isuzu has to replace the engine at their expense.

For what it's worth, it was an interesting process and I learned a lot. It really came down to me having all repair records (epecially oil changes) and making the argument that, if I were the type of person that never checked the oil, the engine would have seized long ago. That and the fact that my other cars all have well over 100,000 on them.

Interestingly, I don't believe that all the internet reports (including the National Hiighway Transportation Safety Board and this board) helped. The Isuzu rep immediately challenged them stating that "anyone can write anything on the internet". What might have helped was Isuzu's own service bulletin about excessive oil usage. Even though someone on this post was nice enough to post it (Thanks!), I went ahead and bought it from AllData.com and presented it. I'm glad I did.

Now, I just have 2 minor probems I need to gather more data on and then fix. I've had the Trooper back for about 2-3 days. On the 2nd day on the way back from work, it died at a red light. It started right up again. It was almost like it was idling too low. (Anyone know what RPM they should idle at?). That was on Friday. I drove it all Saturday and Sunday trying to duplicated it but could not. I'm hesitant to take it in when the problem can't be duplicated.

The other problem (which came before the engine seizing) is a slight noise or rattle when in Low gear. The Isuzu dealership was nice enough to diagnos this as a loose plate in the muffler. I thought it was going to be transmission related but apparently it's a loose plate and happens only in low due to higher torque. They said it will become more pronounced with time and cost approximately $900 to fix. (all new muffler assembly)
So, I'll search these forums and elsewhere and see what my option are (including fixing it myself).

Thanks again everyone.

[BigSwede]

Congrats on the victory.

The exhaust rattle is usually a loose heat shield at the cats, make sure yours are tight.

The idle thing could possibly be a vacuum leak if they didn't get all the hoses hooked up right, a distinct possibility.

[tomster]

Boy was I wrong. Glad to hear you won.

[ezlivin11]

score one for the little guys Congrats

[trooperbc]

congratulations !

....Now, I just have 2 minor probems I need to gather more data on and then fix. I've had the Trooper back for about 2-3 days. On the 2nd day on the way back from work, it died at a red light. It started right up again. It was almost like it was idling too low. (Anyone know what RPM they should idle at?). That was on Friday. I drove it all Saturday and Sunday trying to duplicated it but could not. I'm hesitant to take it in when the problem can't be duplicated.

i understand your hesitation, but as you know, it will be helpful to get this on the record asap, just in case. it could be as simple as a vacuum leak, it could be as simple as the computer learning the settings for the IAC motor with or without a vacuum leak. but it could be a problem (including the vacuum leak, that the computer is masking with driveability changes but not correcting the underlying problem. i'd get it written up.

i take it that the rattle isn't an engine rattle ?

They said it will become more pronounced with time and cost approximately $900 to fix. (all new muffler assembly)

just go to a couple of local muffler shops. you can get replacements from cheap to not so cheap with better materials as you go up. isuzu muffler components seem to last forever, but they are way too expensive as replacements imo.

//bc

[isuzufool]

Wow, that's amazing that you won. I would definately get the muffler looked at by an indipendent shop or even a meinake type place. The engine stalling, on the other hand, I agree with trooperbc even though it will probably cost you.

[timrkopi]

Remeber you have a stainless steel exhaust system. It aint going
to be cheep to fix. Thing is though, it should last forever. I do not
think your cats have heat shields, or at least typical heat shields.

[Amigo-2k]

There are a bunch of little heat shields that are welded on. I had a weld break on and it made a heck of a buzzing sound from 30-40 MPH.

[spoon059]

I had an annoying buzz on my old Ford pickup, turns out it was a loose heat shield in the exhaust. I was young and broke back them, so all I did was take a pair of pliers and bend the heat shield back so it didn' vibrate against the broken weld. The heat shield was still in place and protecting what it was designed to protect, but didn't buzz anymore. Simple solution.

[trooperbc]

....made a heck of a buzzing ...

I had an annoying buzz on my old Ford pickup,....

my buzz was quite pleasant, as i remember anyway.

//bc

[squatch]

Dave I've been through this kinda crap with my last 3 new trucks. The 2nd one was my 2000 trooper same issue burning qt every 800 miles at 65k. The dealer had already replaced 2 egrs and charged me $300 a pop for the service( I had same warrenty). I went in for an oil consumption test the dealer added and extra qt. I didn't check the oil before I left the dealer becuase it was raining. When I got home I checked it and called them they got all hot and started spouting about how I tried to sabotage the test yada yada. On my last lemon that was in the shop for 4 months straight with no repairs I got smart. I callled these folks. http://www.lemonlaw.com/index-noflash.htm
2 monthes later I was turning my POS in for a check! These kind of lawyers already have buyback programs set up with the manufacturers for the commonly known problems that qualify. Read their site. Everything they say in there is exactly the way I've been handled in the past. BBB is a bunch of BS! Hope this helps!
EDIT::DUH, I obviously skipped past the important parts when I wrote this. I'm astounded that you won. I've never had any luck with that route even with good records. Cool Beans!

[trooperbc]

Remeber you have a stainless steel exhaust system. It aint going
to be cheep to fix. Thing is though, it should last forever. .....

yes that is why they last so long, and why dealer replacement parts are so outrageously expensive....BUT there is no need or requirement to replace with stainless, and unless you will definitely keep the truck for the same period of time you have just driven, i'm thinking giving that money to the junkyard isn't cost effective.

//bc

[daveTrooper]

My apologies, I posted this on the wrong thread. For all those who gave advice or have been following and are still interested, here's an update.
I would add to the below that I think I'll go for it and get the repairs although I'm getting no end of grief from the wife complaining that this Trooper is a lemon and there's no end of problem. [Given that the Transmission and Engine have both been replaced and all the other problems, I suppose I can't put her compaints down as irrational ]

I was also told that cleaning the throttle body, egr, fuel injection etc would normally be part of a engine replacement. I suspect Isuzu figued that it's a free replacement so they could skip that part.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So for those of you interested in the engine replacement saga.... Here's an update. Engine was replaced and as I said I noticed a few problems. These were:
1. Rattling in low gear
2. Dying at stops.
3. Not able to start car.

Isuzu paid for the diagnostic of these problems. The dealers says the problems are:
1. Loose plate in muffler. Solution: replace entire muffler at around $700.
2. Dies because Throttle Body, Fuel Injection, EGR Porting and EGR Valve are dirty and need to be cleaned. Cost: $210
3. Vehicle needs new Starter Motor. Cost $672

It's #3 that I'm somewhat concerned about and was hoping to fact check. Should it really take 3 hours of professional mechanic time to replace? Is there a lot of stuff in way? I remember it being a cinch on a toyota truck, but that's a whole different beast. It seems very coincidental that it starts acting up right after an engine change. Are there obvious cables to test for connection? Is 87K a reasonable amount of mileage for the Trooper starter motor?

On #1, I still need to get under the car and see if I can see an obvious problem. Some of you suggested "heat shield". Thanks. The dealer didn't specify anything more than "loose plate" and "replace entire muffler assembly".

Thanks.
_________________
Dave

[trooperbc]

thanks for the updates...

...It's #3 that I'm somewhat concerned about and was hoping to fact check. Should it really take 3 hours of professional mechanic time to replace? Is there a lot of stuff in way? I remember it being a cinch on a toyota truck, but that's a whole different beast. It seems very coincidental that it starts acting up right after an engine change. Are there obvious cables to test for connection? Is 87K a reasonable amount of mileage for the Trooper starter motor?

it won' t take them 3 hours, it's not unlikely it will take you 3 hours. the problem is the exhaust usually has to be partially dropped to do it.
but as far as their 3 hours, if that's their flat rate that's their flat rate.

you can do it yourself, and get a quality remanufactured by bosch starter for lots less (but not cheap) than what you will pay at the dealer. 87000 miles reasonable? depends on how many starts, i suppose. it's not unreasonable, and is easily checked, and it just sounds like one of those common improbable coincidences that accompany car work sometimes.

cables to test? the ones you see, namely the big fat one feeding it the juice.

most things are going to be cheaper to do yourself, or by a quality independent mechanic as long as you,they use quality parts. the $210 for all that work on #2 seems more than reasonable to me if all that is well done.

//bc

[Ramblin Fever]

My starter lasted 150k miles, and I'm still on my original exhaust after 11yrs and 183k miles.

Although I do have holes creeping up in my muffler......

It's too bad you've had so many issues.

I remember when Rodeo's first came out YEARS ago, we had bought one of the very first released ones.....total peice of crap, it was in the shop more then at the house.

The dealer offered a full refund on purchase price without us having to pursue legal action, we took the offer and exchanged the truck for a later '91 model year Rodeo XS, rather then the stripped out S model of the previous truck.

With the '91 XS they also threw in the option of a customized paint job cause we were not very happy with the feel of the paint that was on the truck. Owned that truck for over 12 happy years.....they did right by us and went back for a 3rd Rodeo that we still have to this day.

It's a shame they gave you so much headache!

[Amigo-2k]

1. Loose plate in muffler. Solution: replace entire muffler at around $700.


take it to an exhaust shop and have an aftermart muffler installed for less then 200 bucks. The OEM is huge, heavy and restrictive.

2. Dies because Throttle Body, Fuel Injection, EGR Porting and EGR Valve are dirty and need to be cleaned. Cost: $210

In under 30 minutes and 5 bucks for a can of O2 safe carb cleaner you can do it yourself.


3. Vehicle needs new Starter Motor. Cost $672

The exhaust is in the way, or they unbolt the engine and lift it up. A dealer that has done it before can do it in under 1.5 hours. I would shop around for another shop and buy your own part and bring it in.