89 Trooper Idles Rough, Poor Gas Mileage

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89 Trooper Idles Rough, Poor Gas Mileage

Postby james.oco » Thu May 17, 2007 10:36 am

I have an 89 Trooper 2.6l that idles pretty rough and I'm guessing that my poor gas mileage problem is related to that. I have replaced the spark plugs, distributor cap, air filter, and have attempted to adjust the idle speed(which did not respond well). It's almost as if I can hear an air leak in the engine compartment near the fuel injectors while the engine is running, though I'm not sure. I've replaced and looked over the vacuum hoses, though have found no problems there. I hooked up a tach and unplugged each spark plug wire one at a time to make sure that each cylinder is contributing equally and to see if an injector may have been clogged as well though everything seems normal. Engine only has 40,000 on it. Any suggestions?
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Postby bigpoppax2 » Thu May 17, 2007 10:44 am

Pull your air intake tube off and inspect it. Mine had a hole in the bottom of it about the size of a 50 cent piece. Right where the tube would hit the valve cover.

When was the last time the valves were adjusted? Your engine requires a valve adjustment every 15,000 miles.

Do you have the correct temp t-stat in it? You will get issues with the wrong t-stat in it. The factory t-stat is highly recommended, as opposed to just a parts store stat.

Check your coolant level, the idle will do funny things if it's low.

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Postby Hack » Thu May 17, 2007 11:36 am

Everything that Joe said, plus check the vacuum hoses and the EGR system.

The 2.6 has miles of vacuum tubing. One could have come loose while you were working on the engine. Also over time the ends get brittle. Try pulling some off the nipples. If the ends are stiff or cracked, the tubes could be leaking causing your problem.

Try cleaning the EGR. Also, sometimes the Back Pressure Transducer will go bad and let too much of the exhaust gases recirculate at idle causing a rough idle or stall out. A faulty transducer can either be replaced or bypassed using this procedure.
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Postby MarcusInMD » Thu May 17, 2007 1:31 pm

Read my thread here:

http://forum.planetisuzoo.com/viewtopic.php?t=12884


In the end I believe the problem is multifaceted. The new EGR valve and throttle position sensor made the most difference it appears.

Also, if you have not already checked do a search for Intake manifold gasket. Mine had a big leak but fixing it did not help with my idle issue. The above seems to have helped greatly though.
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Postby james.oco » Thu May 17, 2007 2:02 pm

Thanks. Will try these procedures. Any chance that it could be an ignition timing problem? I don't know much about that but the Chilton book that I have lists it as a potential problem.
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rough idle

Postby Trooper2Guru » Thu May 17, 2007 3:48 pm

I HAVE A SIMILAR PROBLEM WITH MY 89 ALSO IT IDLES ROUGH WHEN I FIRST START IT BUT AFTER A FEW MIN IT WILL PLAIN OUT AND RUN FINE. IT STARTED AFTER I REPLACED THE ALT AND I HAVE CHECKED EVERYTHING AND IT STILL DOES THE SAME THING SO I DONT KNOW WHAT IS GOING ON WITH IT.
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Postby UNDERDOG » Fri May 18, 2007 11:04 pm

One thing I have found is the thermo valve that sits on top of the thermostat housing. My issue was am idle that hunted up and down at a stop once it was warm, and ran rough at a cold start.

If you are having gas milage issues, the cheapest and easiest fixers are the air filter and deffinetly the fuel filter. I would replace both of these at least every 30,000 miles! The fuel filter is on the inside of the frame rail, passanger side, and the postion should be where the rear bench seat is at.
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Postby m-79_grenadier » Fri May 18, 2007 11:43 pm

The two issues may actually be related. One bad sensor, or vacuum valve in the 2.6 can actually make it seem like a bunch of things have gone bad at once. Almost ALL rough idle problems with the 2.6 are related to the fuel delivery, and vacuum system.

Lets start a process of elimation:

1. Is the engine running noticeably rich? Can you smell gas when its running?

2. Have you ever had the check engine light come on for no reason?

3. Does it idle smooth when its warm? Or does it continue to run rough even after its been running?

4. Pull the small vacuum line off that leads from the manifold to the purge canister. Does the idle climb up when the line is disconnected, or does it stay the same?
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Postby james.oco » Mon May 21, 2007 10:52 pm

1. Engine is running noticeable rich, gas mileage is poor and gas can occassionally be smelled while running.

2. I have not noticed the check engine light ever come on.

3. Idle may get slightly better when warm, though still a good bit of vibration during idle.

4. Have not had chance to pull vacuum line on purge canister.

I have been able to replace a few vacuum hoses which has helped a bit. I am planning on replacing the fuel filter within the next day or two. It looks to be the original fuel filter. Right now it is idling around 6 or 700 RPM's. I have read that it's supposed to idle around 850, though I can't get it up that high when turning the idle adjustment screw. After inspection, EGR valve seems to be functioning as it should.
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Postby ZuCruTrooper2 » Tue May 22, 2007 4:27 am

UNDERDOG wrote:One thing I have found is the thermo valve that sits on top of the thermostat housing. My issue was am idle that hunted up and down at a stop once it was warm, and ran rough at a cold start.

If you are having gas milage issues, the cheapest and easiest fixers are the air filter and deffinetly the fuel filter. I would replace both of these at least every 30,000 miles! The fuel filter is on the inside of the frame rail, passanger side, and the postion should be where the rear bench seat is at.


That actually makes a lot of sense. How much do those run?
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Postby Littlejon » Tue May 22, 2007 9:35 am

Fuel filter is not expensive at all. I can't remember what I pay for mine, but it is less than $15, IIRC, and that is for a "good" one. If yours is still the original, it definitely needs replacing.

As for the "loping" of the engine, especially when cold, mine did that for years. Never could figure out exactly what it was until I noticed once it was worse after I sprayed some throttle body cleaner into the TB. There is a sensor on the TB that the spray actually messes up. I have stopped using the stuff altogether.

Anyway, don't know if that is causing you problems, but from what you desribed, it sounds like a vacuum issue to me. I replaced ALL vacuum lines and noticed mine ran a lot better. Might also want to replace the plug wires. I wouldn't mess too much with the idle adjustment. I have never done much of anything with mine. These engines are known to have vacuum line issues from time to time, which can sometimes make it look like other problems.

You should also check the air filter housing and the breather tube going to the throttle body for any cracks, leaks and to make sure the top of the air filter housing is seated correctly. Also check the sensor on the tube and make sure it has no leaks around it was well.

To give you an idea of mileage (and I know everyone's is different), mine has almost 367,000 miles on it right now. I drive it 80 + miles every day and the rings are wearing out to the point I put in about a quart of oil every 400 miles and I STILL get 20 mpg. I have gotten as high as 22 mpg as of a year or two ago. I replace the fuel filter regularly, plugs regularly and keep an eye on the vacuum lines. A little TLC and these babies will last you a LONG time!
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Postby UNDERDOG » Tue May 22, 2007 11:36 am

JBH1989 wrote:That actually makes a lot of sense. How much do those run?


The engine water terminal valve part #8944545800, list price $71.43. your cost $53.57.

The fuel filter part #8971257840, list price $10.85. Your cost $8.14.

I am not saying this is going to be your fix, but from my experience with the master techs here at work and my own line of troopers I have owned, this has been the only issue I have had with the idle.

I am glad I never had any vacuum issues. I have pulled that 2.6 probably a half dozen times, and I hated the vacuum lines for the first few yards! :x

Well, I hope this helps.

Jacob :D
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Postby m-79_grenadier » Tue May 22, 2007 8:55 pm

That thermal valve can cause idle problems. I broke mine taking it off with a crescent wrench, and figured Id just go down and get a new one. I about ---- a brick when I found out that one little POS plastic valve was of going to cost me $70! :shock: So I super glued it and lived with rough idle until I finally broke down and bought one. :roll:

But the fact that your motor is running noticably rich makes me believe it could be somthing different. For this motor to be running that rich, It almost has to be either a sensor, or the fuel pressure regulator. The sensor I most suspect would probably be the coolant temp sensor. Not the coolant temp SENDING UNIT for the dash gauge, but the sensor for the ECM which is located underneath the intake manifold directly below the water neck. The ECM uses this to read the temperature of the engine in order to richen/lean the fuel mixture. For example if you were to start the motor in cold weather, the ECM would sense the cold temperature of the engine and richen the mixture for a choke effect.

When these things go bad they send a signal to the ECM telling it that the engine is at somthing like -150 degrees, and the ECM richens the hell out of the fuel mixture in order to compensate for the false reading. Usualy a bad Temp sensor will give a check engine light, but not always. Im my '88 I was going though the same thing you are, and found out it was this sensor that was causing it. But It actually never threw any codes untill a good while after I noticed that it went bad. Baffled the hell out of me for months untill it started throwing out that code. :roll:
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Me too ...

Postby MarkB.NV » Fri Jul 06, 2007 4:59 am

Mine's having a similar problem. (not to jack your thread, hopefully it close enough)

On cold start, it stumbles and won't idle for the first 20 seconds or so, then seems okay with a low speed idle (~750 rpm). Once its warmed up, it idles at about 950, but the idle speed surges slightly.

The real problem is the surging while driving. It's not a lot, but always there once warmed up. And it's very annoying, as in driving me crazy.

Specs: 1989 Trooper, 4 door, 2.6L, 5spd, w/ AC. I searched for a decent candidate for quite a while. This one is in very good overall condition, interior is clean. All electrics and mechanicals work, including AC and heater. Body is very good, just one ding in left rear fender. No rust at all. Paint is faded on roof and hood, otherwise okay. Picked it up used in May 07 and I'm still trying to get it sorted out. Have had some work done on it by a shop I trust, and did a bunch of it myself.

Have replaced: Belts, hoses, timing belt & tensioner, adjusted valves (all done by a decent shop)
Replaced EGR pipe (also done by shop) so that should not be clogged

I replaced the air filter,
Fuel filter,
thermo valve,
cap and rotor,
plug wires (NGK),
plugs (NGK Iridium) old plugs were sooty color.
virtually all vacuum lines.

Cleaned the EGR.
But have not set the timing.
Inspected the intake hose and rubber boot on the TB. No leaks there.

>>1. Is the engine running noticeably rich? Can you smell gas when its running?
Yes, runs rich, gets poor mileage, like about 12 mpg.

>>2. Have you ever had the check engine light come on for no reason?
Well, kinda. Had CEL come on, and got a code 35, but traced it to bad mounting of the power transistor. I bolted it down solid and cleared the code, no more problems with that.

>>3. Does it idle smooth when its warm? Or does it continue to run rough even after its been running?
Not, it seems to surge only when warmed up. Cold start it stumbles and doesn't want to idle (day time temps of 70-90 dF). Once it has warmed up, it idles okay for the most part, just that damn surging...

>>>>4. Pull the small vacuum line off that leads from the manifold to the purge canister. Does the idle climb up when the line is disconnected, or does it stay the same?
>>I'll check first thing tomorrow.
Checked, and the idle actually goes down when I pull off the vac line from the canister.

I would gladly replace the EGR, FPR, O2 and temp sensor if I knew that would cure the issue... It's a bit maddening.

Thanks much!!!
Last edited by MarkB.NV on Fri Jul 06, 2007 8:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby NC89Trooper » Fri Jul 06, 2007 7:42 am

I had a similar problem. Check and see if you have problems when you turn on your compressor ( Air Conditioning ) that would make my idle problems go away. I ended up taking to a place that said it was as easy as adjusting the fuel injectors. They adjusted it for me and I have had no problems since, these might need to be adjusted once in a long time.
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Postby MarkB.NV » Fri Jul 06, 2007 9:59 pm

I have a new EGR and will replace it today.
I also have a Bosh replacement 02 sensor. But the original doesn't want to come out. This despite the 22mm 02 socket and 24" breaker bar.
I'm thinking the DPO didn't use the antisieze compound when it was installed.

Thermostat and new gasket are on order from the dealer.
Thermo sensor is on order from the dealer.
FPR is on order from the dealer.
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Postby RexDodge » Sat Jul 07, 2007 12:16 pm

Throw some heat on that exhaust manifold and your sensor should come out.
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Postby MarkB.NV » Sat Jul 07, 2007 4:10 pm

In the continuing saga...

Replaced the EGR valve with a new one. Old one was a isuzu OEM unit and still operated just fin. I will look to giving it a very thorough cleaning and put it back into the spares bin.

I checked and reset the timing. It was at ~4 degrees, and I reset it to 12. Had to adjust the idle, because when I got it close to 12 degrees, the original idle speed went from ~700 rpm to about 1100. When I finished the warm engine was at 12 degrees and ~900 rpm. I used the $12 timing light from harborfright. It was weak but functional. I just used the tach on the dash. What do you guys use for a proper tach?

Dirveability and performance seem to be much improved, and the surging is diminished but still there. We'll see what impact the other new parts will have. More fun challenges!
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Parts ID needed for sensors and sensors and ...

Postby MarkB.NV » Sat Jul 07, 2007 5:02 pm

On another note, the thermo sensor that feeds the ECM is up under the intake manifold. Others have posted pics showing the sensor mounted next to the meters temp sensor, along the righthand edge of the manifold. Mine is located underneath and inward a bit.

Can one of you gurus help me identify which is which?

First, I confess to having shamelessly stolen these images from some one else's tales of mechanical woe. Sorry, I forgot where I stole these from -but I'm grateful for the map to this wonderland. Thank you. And since I don't have my head, plenum, or intake manifold off the engine, I have used these pics to try to identify which sensor is located where.

Image

Image

Item description / role, and name, OEM part number:
1. The temp sensor for the meter on the dash, THERMOMETER UNIT, 4ZD1 and 4ZE1, 8-94247-437-1. (item 83 on parts diagram # 0-60)
Looks good, mine has the same part in the same place, and the dash meter works just fine.

2. Looks like a temp probe, but what for ?
Mine (4ZE1, 1990 model year) just has a plug screwed into this hole. Weird.

3. Water temp sensor for ECM, SENSOR; WATER TEMP, 4ZE1 engine, 8-94205-866-0. (item 260 on parts diagram # 0-60)
Mine has the same part in the same place. I'll replace it soon though -could be causing an overly rich condition.

4. Whats this big thing?
Mine has one but I have yet to identify the gizmo. ???

Thank you!
MarkB.NV, Silver '90 Trooper, 2.6L, 5spd, 203K mi. Blue '89 Trooper, 2.6L, 5spd, 240K mi.
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Re: Parts ID needed for sensors and sensors and ...

Postby bendorfold » Sat Jul 07, 2007 6:24 pm

foo wrote:4. Whats this big thing?
Mine has one but I have yet to identify the gizmo. ???
It's the Auxiliary Air Regulator = fast idle when cold.
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Postby MarkB.NV » Sun Jul 08, 2007 7:19 pm

WooHoo! Seemed to have finally whipped that darned surging problem. Good thing too, I was running out of things to replace.

The Chilton manual has a section on testing the 02 sensor (sect 4-9). You should be seeing a rapidly fluctuating voltage in the range of 0.4 to 0.6. If if fluctuates slowly, or is way off, then something is amiss. I didn't test it with the meter, but the slow cycle of the surging made me suspect the 02 sensor. The surging was very regular, or cyclical. When driving, you could notice the engine pull harder, then ease off, then pull harder, then ease off.

So I snagged a new Bosch 02 sensor for $26 from Kragen/Checker and went about installing it. Arrrrgh! The corners of the original sensor were already rounded off, The nifty 02 socket just kept slipping, no matter what I tried. I hosed it down liberally with penetrating oil (PB Blaster). Tried it hot and I tried it cold. Nothing seemed to work.

So, I had to pull off the exhaust manifold, and then working on the bench, I managed to wrestle the beast out of there. The only thing that worked on it was a large pair of vise grips- and a 30 inch cheater bar. Grrrr... that was tough.

Image

The new sensor went in fine. And a mere 6 hours after starting this project, I had put it all back together and the motor fired up. It surged a bit at idle, but then seemed to settle down as it warmed up. (good thing I don't wrench for a living -I'd starve) Took it for a 30 miles test drive and now it seems to run fine, no more surging, thank God. We'll see if it passes the emissions test later this week.

The truck also had a funky behavior with the accelerator pedal. Just off idle, it would hesitate, then surge strongly as you pressed the pedal farther. I adjusted the excess slack out of the cable mount (right near the TB). Also, I adjusted the throttle position sensor so that the switch would loose continuity just off idle. I did not see a "How To" for this in the manual, but some of notes that Jerry had posted on another idle surge thread had me thinking about this. Those shots from the factory manual really helped. Thanks Jerry!

Finally, I owe a big apology to james.oco for barging into his thread. Sorry james.
Perhaps there's some helpful nugget in my wordy postings.
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Re: 89 Trooper Idles Rough, Poor Gas Mileage

Postby Skeletor » Mon Jul 09, 2007 6:12 am

james.oco wrote:I have an 89 Trooper 2.6l that idles pretty rough and I'm guessing that my poor gas mileage problem is related to that. I have replaced the spark plugs, distributor cap, air filter, and have attempted to adjust the idle speed(which did not respond well). It's almost as if I can hear an air leak in the engine compartment near the fuel injectors while the engine is running, though I'm not sure. I've replaced and looked over the vacuum hoses, though have found no problems there. I hooked up a tach and unplugged each spark plug wire one at a time to make sure that each cylinder is contributing equally and to see if an injector may have been clogged as well though everything seems normal. Engine only has 40,000 on it. Any suggestions?


cars are like women...no two troopers are the same...especailly as they get older...'long in the tooth'..but like babes, we keep on coming back for more.....just replace what nees to be done..i.e. 02, pcv, etc..and hope for the best !!!!
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